Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You call that radio?
[00:00:03] Speaker B: It's season five. It's episode six of you Call that Radio. You join us today from Very Sunny Day in Glasgow. It's been a very sunny week in Glasgow, but we're going to go back to a rainy January or February where we've been doing a secret.
A secret project which involves Jim Morning and a panelist special guest called beyond the Cringe.
Jim is our special guest today. Jim is sadly in hospital right now as of it's nothing to do with the podcast, by the way. I just like to clarify that I know the gym was looking forward to listening to this episode. So get well soon, Jim, and I've also put a link to his coffee account if you want to support him. Hopefully he gets well soon and we can get back to recording more episodes. But we already have four episodes all together recorded at Glad Radio at the deep end, so thanks to them for, for letting us record there. And he's got some brilliant special guests, so I'm looking forward to releasing these all over the next few weeks.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: But we thought episode this is episode.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Zero, basically of beyond the Cringe and it's just me talking to Jim Mornin about the concept of beyond the Cringe and talking about his career as a writer, a poet and community activist. So just going to talk about that and arts and culture in Scotland and stuff like that. It's a really good chat. Thanks to Mako for helping me a little bit of mixing and mastering as well. And I hope you enjoy. This is just episode zero and the first proper episode should be out next week.
So yeah, this is Jim Mornin and hope you enjoy the show. Just one final thing. There's no adverts or sponsors or funding on you call that radio. If you want to support, it's completely optional. You go to patreon.com/forward/you call that radio. So there'll be no adverts or sponsors throughout the rest of it. And thanks to everyone who came to our album launch as well.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: I just want to say it means a lot.
[00:02:26] Speaker B: We packed out Slay and we're overwhelmed by your generosity and support of the new album from Gyro Babies, which is called Dreams Are Mental.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: It's not available to stream yet. There's a few singles on the streaming.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: Platforms, but the full album's available only on Bandcamp or CD or vinyl. And maybe one day it will be on the streaming platforms, but for now that's all the only way you can get it. But just thank you to everyone who came to the show. And thanks to everyone who supports the Patreon. And I really hope you enjoy the.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: Start of a new era, which is.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: The beyond the Cringe era. Get well soon, Jim. This is my interview with Jim Morning.
[00:03:07] Speaker C: Beyond the Cringe on. You call that radio Episode zero.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to. Well, this is two things. This is almost like a pilot episode of a podcast called beyond the Cringe, but you also may be listening to it when you call that radio, because you call that radio is producing beyond the Cringe. And I'm joined with the host of beyond the Cringe, Jim Monan. Hello, Jim.
[00:03:35] Speaker C: Hi, Mark.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: First of all, who are you?
[00:03:39] Speaker C: I'm a writer and poet and I don't know what else it calls community activist. I think I'm in Govin Hill and I've been involved in the arts in Scotland and admin and promotion side as well as. As a practicing artist for about 40 years now.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: And what is. I know you're going to add being a podcaster to your.
[00:04:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm going to try.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: Well, you're doing it. You're doing it. It's happening. What is beyond the Cringe going to be about?
[00:04:13] Speaker C: Ah, right. Beyond the Cringe is there's a lot of stuff about. There's podcasts and other things about Scottish culture.
Rather than do a sort of cultural show, tell you what's on, discuss the best show at the Fringe or anything, I wanted to do a series of podcasts about the whole nature of Scottish culture. What is it? What do we call Scottish culture? What do we recognise as Scottish culture? Is it particularly Scottish? Is it any good? Is it worth celebrating as a Scottish culture? Or are we just the same as anywhere else?
[00:04:48] Speaker A: And do you have an opinion in that? Do you want to share your opinion on that? I kinda.
[00:04:52] Speaker C: I kinda have a. Overall, I kinda think we are the same as anywhere else in that, you know, probably our most popular Scottish music, as you know, people at teenage fan club and all that kind of stuff are heavily influenced by.
It's American rather than Scottish sort of influence.
Simple Minds, there's a. There's a current documentary with Simple Minds, people looking back at him. Huge, massive, internationally known band. It's probably very European sounding rather than Scottish, if you like. So I kind of think that we are part of a wider world culture and some things and sometimes in Scotland we are good at certain things and. But it's not necessarily. That doesn't necessarily make it a Scottish culture, if you know what I mean. It just makes it culture that happens. Happens to be happening in Scotland at that time.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: How long you been in that? Did you say that, sir?
[00:05:50] Speaker C: About 40 years, I think. 40, 40, yeah. I'd say, in fact, more than that. I think the first time I'd actually organized a gig or anything. Maybe about 1979, something like that.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Tell us about the first gig.
[00:06:04] Speaker C: First gig there was two or three. I think it was the first one. First one, Church hall and Golson, St. Sophia's Church Hall. A band called the Badger Sisters and trying to think who else were on Expel Du. Who's Davey Wiseman for the Furies, for Junkman's Choir, one of his first bands. And the Hut, a band, Figolsen and me doing some poems in between.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: Legend. He's a legend as well.
[00:06:33] Speaker C: There's eight people there. It was great.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: So how does it feel when you put on your own gig? There's eight people turn up.
Were you happy with that?
[00:06:40] Speaker C: I said at that time it didn't matter. It was punk. We were just. We were just happy to be able to make noise in the church hall. And we were just doing it for each other, really. There was other times where it was mobbed and huge. By the time it got to the 80s, I was doing it professionally. And then a weekly club in Komarna and we're putting on the Shaman and Primal Scream and all those bands at the time. And by that stage, yeah, I'm no happy if you don't sell tickets because it's actually cost me money.
Back in the day, it didn't really matter, you know, nobody's. Nobody was getting paid, nobody was caring. We were just happy to be able to make some noise, you know.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: Could you tell back then that Primal Scream were going to be as big as they were?
Did you have an England?
[00:07:27] Speaker C: No. Really? No.
I think they've been gone for a couple of years. Primal Scheme at that stage, it was a kind of time Imperial and all that was before, like a lot of band like the Shaman. When I put the Shaman on, they sounded a bit like the Doors or the Stranglers or something. Didn't sound like the way they end. So it was pre Ecstasy. It was before. It was before the. All the indie bands took ecstasy and got funky and so Primo Scheme are good that night. I really liked them, but I was into that kind of scene at the time anyway. But it was like 80 people in Komana on a Thursday night, you know. I think I paid them 120 quid.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: So you said the Shaman there as well. Absolutely love the Shaman. I'm trying to imagine the Shaman, like pre rave generation Shaman. So when you're saying it's like the doors, Mr. C singing, you know, that's.
[00:08:16] Speaker C: Gonna sound like the Doors. The Stranglers are a bit like. There's a keyboard.
[00:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah, got you.
[00:08:20] Speaker C: It's quite dark and all that. There's an album called the Drop. I'll just drop just before the famous Shaman. And it's really good, actually, really good stuff.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Just going back to the sort of theme of beyond the cringe. When you're doing these gigs, do you feel that you're part of Scottish culture at this point or part of Ayrshire culture?
[00:08:43] Speaker C: See, that's the thing, you know, so I do, I do. I'm Scottish, you know, so. And I'm part of, or have been part of various scenes where it's poetry scene, literary scene, whatever in Scotland. But I am also, yeah, I'm very much a like east here sort of come. I see myself pretty mining culture and. And things like that, you know. See, this is part of my culture and also I lived in London for many years and. But I. I kind of think it was probably around the time of the 2014 referendum thing and that year there was loads of. There was national collective and there was loads of talk about Scottish culture. And it didn't seem me as if Andy was asking the question about what is it? What is it the Scottish culture you're talking about? You know, they would just talk about like a whole lot of general things that happened in Scotland. And, you know, some of them were being done by people who weren't the Scottish in Scotland.
So we're claiming all the non Scots doing stuff and we were claiming all the Scottish people who did something abroad. You know what I mean?
[00:09:49] Speaker A: It's kind of like the way that.
[00:09:51] Speaker C: So Avan Shite band weren't the American culture, they were Scottish culture because they were born in Scotland. But whereas anybody who's moved here from somewhere else and is now acdc. Well, ACDC Scottish culture, yeah. And so is. So is somebody born elsewhere who's now making records in Scotland. Lloyd Cole or whatever.
[00:10:09] Speaker A: Well, this is. It seems to be quite a comment. I mean, the London media likes to do that. It's if you lose a sporting event, you're Scottish and if you win, you're British.
[00:10:19] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: So that's British culture if you're a winner.
But if you lose your Scottish and.
[00:10:24] Speaker C: Chester sporting event, what we will be doing is when I talk about Scottish culture, where we talk about it in its widest sense. So Culture to me includes football, includes media, includes things like that. So includes languages. So we're looking at culture and we just saying I might even do an episode on religion, but good luck there could be dangerous.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: So what do you have plans? Do you have concepts of a plan?
[00:10:50] Speaker C: Yeah, initially what we're going to do is each episode we'll look at a different subject, so subject by subject. And the first one will be Scottish music. It's a nice easy one. You get an A because everybody's got an opinion and there's loads of people good. Loads of good guests you can get on.
I For the. For the music issue episode we have Grant McPhee who's the writer and filmmaker.
He made the Teenage Superstars film New Gold Dreams as well he's currently a book, Postcards from Scotland about postcard records, Orange juice and Aztec camera, etc. We've got Carla Easton, singer, songwriter, lead singer of the Tin Canteen and also she's recently made a film since Yesterday about history of girl bands in Scotland. And Josie Long, who is a comedian, lives in Glasgow from London, but she's also big long term fan of Scottish music, Scottish indie music specifically.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: That's a cracking lineup, I guess for the first episode. So that's going to focus on music and what do you have other subjects already in mind?
[00:11:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I think the first three I think are going to be music, Fatba, unfortunately, and Scottish television. I think that's the three that's going to be. But in the future, following on for that, definitely Scottish theater, books, possibly religion. And I definitely want to look at languages, but I don't know how to date a languages thing because I'd have to date in English because I don't speak any languages. But I'll tell you the best guest.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: I ever had on that was probably Dr. Michael Dempster.
[00:12:34] Speaker C: On Scotch language. Yes, on the Scotch language, yeah.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: I learned so much talking to.
[00:12:39] Speaker C: Absolutely. Michael Dempster. Billy Key and others are really good on the. The Brad Wilson on. On the Scottish language stuff, especially the Laland Scots which I was brought up me in Cumnock. I don't really speak it now. I speak a. A dial. A dialect.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Did you feel sick at half past seven?
[00:12:54] Speaker C: I really. All of that my grand. Had different words for everything. Absolutely everything. Like a tap was a spigot, shoes were shin, slippers were whose shin eyes, eyes were ease and een.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Just going back to slippers. Why the five. Why are five people so obsessed with buffies?
[00:13:18] Speaker C: Yeah, they call them bathies, they call them buffies.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: But it's not. That's not the problem because obviously every part of Scotland's got different words they use. But I feel that the people of Faith. I love. I love the people of Faith. Can I just clarify? But they do talk about Buffy's a lot like. It just seems to come up in conversation. Like in Glasgow we don't have many conversations about slippers. But I'm just wondering, in Ayrshire, did you.
[00:13:40] Speaker C: So what did you say that you called who's Shin? Like shoes for the house.
Right.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: I've never heard that one. And I represent Ayrshire myself. But maybe I've had a different time.
[00:13:50] Speaker C: That's a thing though. We've had this conversation before about Ayrshire. Ayrshire's huge.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: It's a big place you're in deepest darkest airship as well.
[00:13:58] Speaker C: People do think that if you know some. If you're. I know somebody. VSR. Do you know them? You think, well, that's like 50 miles away from me, you know. I mean, I don't know.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: There's just one bus stop called Ayrshire.
[00:14:08] Speaker C: So I'm. I'm from sort of south east Ayrshire, right in the border of Dumfries and Marks. From sort of northwest. Right in the border of like Inverclyde. Canang type.
No.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: No. 1 for Clyde. No, no.
[00:14:21] Speaker C: But it's.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: I'm kind of like. No, no. Well, I suppose. I suppose it's no fart. It's kind of like I'm halfway between sort of Glasgow and Air.
[00:14:29] Speaker C: So if that's what I thought you were co winning.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: But you know, Irving then coining.
[00:14:33] Speaker C: Right. So.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: So like when from a train's perspective or a driving perspective, it's just probably quicker for me to wait Glasgow than it is to go to Air. And that's why when people ask me about Air nightclubs, they went to Air nightclubs because obviously I was just too young to catch the rave culture scene the first time round.
Where the Metro and Hangar 13 and Ayrshire was one of the most important parts of rave culture. People used to travel from London and all around the world to go to the metro Oranga 13 or even big.
[00:15:08] Speaker C: One off events at Prestwick Airport and things. Yeah, I mean I remember during.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Was it monthly monthly nights at Prestwick Airport.
[00:15:14] Speaker C: There was one in Newcome years ago that had like Public Enemy and all that there. It was Mental Earthquake or something like it was called.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: But the.
With the Ayrshire we didn't see. We didn't talk about slippers much. I don't remember talking about slippers much.
[00:15:30] Speaker C: No, no. I don't know if we could afford maybe.
I don't know. I don't know if I had slippers, to be honest. But I remember my grand called him who's Shin?
Maybe there's a. Maybe there's a thing in Fifier. I know loads of Turkish people who. They like, definitely shoes off the minute you get in the house and they've got what they call Patek, little knitted slippers and you go in the house, you take off your shoes, you put on your pateks.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: It just seems like it's like. Oh, you know, you see bands like Root System. Great band. They will it. Oh, we're on early, we're on at 10 o'clock. So you'll be hang me your bathies on by midnight. You know, it just seems to be. Just turn up in conversations. Anyway, I'm getting derailed by Slipper the five Slipper conversation again.
[00:16:12] Speaker C: Maybe we should have a whole episode on.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: Just a whole episode.
What I found quite interesting is that you mentioned Josie Long there. So that's somebody who's. Who's moved to Glasgow.
What do you. Just as a general question, how do you think Scottish culture is perceived outside of Scotland?
[00:16:30] Speaker C: That's an interesting one. I want to try and get people on the show to talk about. So not just be Scottish people on when we're talking about football. I've got Terry Christian coming on, used to present the word and all that. So it's kind of. I've got.
I want to hear people. Hear what people think. I don't know what people think. It's good. I think there's a tendency for Scottish things not to be seen as Scottish, if you know what I mean. So if you're in America and you like certain Scottish bands, you just. They're just bands that you like. If somebody asks you about Scotland, you probably will imagine a drunk guy own eastenders or something, or some kind of mad serial killer or something. And. And so I kind of think there's an issue there. There's an image of Scotland and Scottish. And then there's a different thing about Scottish culture, because you have Scottish culture musically.
I mean, some. Some of the periods of Scottish music have been absolutely immense worldwide. So you get like bands in Seattle and Havana and all that sitting like. Like plain cover versions, sitting at home completely engrossed in the music of bands for Bells Hill that only sell 500 records, but one of the biggest bands ever, Nirvana are Brought up listening to their music. So you get that right across the world. The same when it was Postcard Records, but it was like Aztec Camera and Orange Juice Go Betweens were Australian band, but they were on Postcard Records globally. It was seen as a kind of phenomenon, even in sort of rave thing, you know that I know loads of guys for England who just thought that whole Scottish TTF stuff and all that was like the peak, was the pinnacle of it and all that. So you kind of. But I don't know if they look at that and say, oh, I like Scottish music or just I like indie music. And some of the bands I like tend to be Scottish type of thing, you know.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: That's a really good point because, you know, if you're a. If you're in a band and you're thinking about tagging, what, you know what, how to describe this.
And you're in, you know, if you're a dj, if you're doing techno, whether or even if you're doing like guitar music, post punk or something, does the tag Scottish music cover it or does the word Scottish music conjure up images of bagpipes and kilts?
[00:18:48] Speaker C: Well, see that as that is a Scottish culture and there is a Scottish music scene.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: Well, that's the end of the podcast then.
[00:18:55] Speaker C: So there is Scottish culture that is, ah, Scottish. I didn't say that. Scottish culture.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:59] Speaker C: So, I mean there is an obvious Scottish music and there's an obvious Scottish music scene who release records. There's Scottish country dancing, there's traditional Scottish music, there's bagpipe music, there's all of that as Scottish.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: I think Scottish hip hop's also Scottish because the accent is so Scottish.
[00:19:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. But the culture of Scotland itself, what makes up a country, a nation, is a whole load of different things. And I would say that the, in terms of importance how people live their life and the culture they live in. They will live in a popular pop music, live in a popular culture. And you're more likely to be listen to teenage fan club than you are to Jimmy Shand, if you know what I mean.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: So I, I see the point you're saying. So like, obviously Bell and Sebastian had some success over there as well. But do you not think people are seeing them? Do you think that someone in America is seeing someone like Bill and Sebastian as a, a great band from the uk?
[00:20:01] Speaker C: I think so, yeah. I used to manage a band called.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Or Europe even.
[00:20:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
But I think, I think uk, I think Britain's got a, A kind of an identity and Image when it comes to music. I used to mind a band called Trash Can Sinatra Scottish band, when we were in America, touring in America, people saw them very much as they were all looking for a new Smiths at a time, but it saw them very much in the vein of a band called xtc. So they had this kind of what they would call college music, like indie music, alternative music with college radio stations. And the trash cans being for Irvin, sang even in a Scottish accent, would have been seen in the same vein as the Smiths in xdc, rather than in the same vein as Scottish country dance or bagpipe music, if you know what I mean.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: It's interesting because obviously this, this is predates the Internet. So I, I didn't. And obviously Trash Cancer Natural were obviously happening. There was tour in America.
[00:21:01] Speaker C: Tour in America just as Internet started. Yeah, in 1990.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: Well, I didn't have it on there for a long time after.
[00:21:08] Speaker C: Nobody did.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:09] Speaker C: But I say I started between those two guys.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: So. Yeah, so the, the. The cult. So I suppose back then as well, it was about how the media portrayed this. So where things like, were the newspapers, were the tabloids supportive of Trash Cancer Naturals were the mainstream enough. Did you get some.
[00:21:32] Speaker C: Oh, right. I mean, with Trash Cans, it was a kind of. It's a brilliant podcast documentary to listen to right now by Ken Sweeney. Now these guys made a documentary about the trash cans, really worth listening to, goes into all their history. And also there's a brilliant one by Davy Scott, who does classic Scottish albums on a BBC podcast, looking at their, I think, fourth album, Weightlifting. But if you go back when I was involved with the trash cans, we were sometimes portrayed as Scottish, you know, in America. And I think that was to do with a few kind of. There's parts of America that are more Scottish than others. So it may be something that appealed to the people for that certain area or whatever. The parts of America are very Scottish, if you like, but in terms of the mainstream media in Scotland, very, very, very supportive.
A lot of people are still writing Billy Sloan and all that kind of stuff. Very much so. BBC Radio Scotland, stv BBC. The Daily Record had them Single of the year, Album of the year, I think. And so he had very much support there in England.
Less so. It was a kind of time just at the start of what became Brit pop and all that stuff. So there's a lot of guitar bands. There was a lot of competition, you know.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: So, yeah, they just missed the bright pot boat.
[00:22:52] Speaker C: Aye aye. Just before.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: Just predated it.
[00:22:55] Speaker C: Or maybe around about the same time as it. But when they.
[00:22:58] Speaker A: How did English. Did English media portray them? Because we talked about how some. Depending on where you were in America, how did England make a deal with them being a Scottish band? Or is that just. Or is it just another UK band?
[00:23:10] Speaker C: I do remember actually, a. A particular review of a single seen that they were inheritors of Deacon Blue's Crown of the Kings of Brush swept Scottish pop. Right. Always remember everybody be dead angry, including Deacon Blue.
Nobody knew what the hell it meant or anything. But it's not what. The Trash Can Crash didn't see themselves as in the same vein as Deacon Blue or anything like it. But I think because of Scottish then looking into Scotland, you can see these bands have been similar just because they're Scottish, even though they're probably nothing like each other, you know.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: So, yeah, it's quite a common trope that the English media, which I've noticed a lot less of now. But I remember when my band was starting it and I've just seen it in general, everyone getting described as the Proclaimers with.
[00:24:03] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: They just threw in because.
[00:24:04] Speaker C: The Proclaimers on acid.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: The Proclaimers on acid.
[00:24:06] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:24:10] Speaker A: The Proclaimers having a house party.
[00:24:11] Speaker C: With the Proclaimers with English accents.
Yeah. Yeah. Very much sooner.
[00:24:18] Speaker A: Sometimes it was meant as a. And also it's obviously not thrown shade at the Proclaimers at all. But sometimes it's meant as a. I feel like it's meant as a sort of an insult, depending on the music. Sometimes it's meant as a compliment.
[00:24:30] Speaker C: Right.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: And it's quite hard to figure out, too, unless you're looking the person dead in the eye.
[00:24:35] Speaker C: The thing about Proclaimers, I've always kind of thought is that because they do sing in a particular. Is it 550?
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:42] Speaker C: I think fife accents. There's quite strong accents then. People see that as. The thing about the Proclaimers, they're actually really, really quality songwriters, these guys. I went. Me and Becky Wallace went to see them last year at the Academy. And you forget until you see them live that every song's an absolute belter. And I remember having their first album and I put them on at that club in Komala. It was packed out. It was my best gig ever. It was the first time I ever made real money. And they sent me a copy of the album. I think it was me at Gear Away through the local paper. A surprise. So I just kept it and played it and I played it a lot. Quality of the songwriting was absolutely brilliant. And sometimes I think people forget that about the Proclaimers. They like to talk about. So if you do something in a Scottish accent, in particular, Scottish way, people will talk about the Scottishness of it rather than the quality of the work.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: You know, there's, if no doubt, phenomenal songwriters, and I suppose it's. They're actually a really good band to bring up in the. In the. In this conversation, because what you've got there is. Is that they are overtly Scottish, but they. They did something modern with it for his first time, so now they kind of set the bar. So that's why anybody who's. Whether it's, you know, whether it's rap music or it's grunge music, if you've got an overtly Scottish accent, then the Proclaimers could very well pop into the description.
[00:26:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: How were the Proclaimers perceived at that time? Because obviously I just grew up, so I was. I remember being a wee guy.
[00:26:16] Speaker C: So the album came out, I think 87, I think it was.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: And it mentioned Urban no More. So obviously, as a.
[00:26:20] Speaker C: As a kid, Pathgate, Linwood, all that stuff in it. But you've got. It came out. I think it was 87. That album came out and it was.
There was two. It was two things going on. There was. People could have seen them as a bit a novelty act and obviously. But that.
That. That is disproved in the fact that they're still there. You know, had they been famous for six months, still touring the world, still.
[00:26:43] Speaker A: Playing massive festivals, but they had a.
[00:26:45] Speaker C: Lot of backing for people for a record company and all that. There was people like Paul Heaton and House Martins and people like that who absolutely were big fans of them and all that stuff. So there's a lot of songwriters out there saw that these guys were quality songwriters first and foremost.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: So Paul Heaton's always been the right side of history.
[00:27:01] Speaker C: I think Paul took them on tour, actually. Yeah. Good stuff at that time.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: Gave us our first radio play as well. With Mr. Heaton.
[00:27:08] Speaker C: Did he? Yeah, he's a top bloke.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: He's a good guy.
So would you say that the arts in Scotland, Scottish culture in general, from all you just. Because obviously, like I said, I was. The Proclaimers have always existed, really, for me.
[00:27:24] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: And so I just take them as. As they are.
And what would you say that the arts in Scotland is getting better, worse? Is it staying the same?
[00:27:38] Speaker C: That. That is. You see, that's the thing that I want to explore. I don't know, So I won't explore that with my guests over the episodes because I think there is a tendency for people of a certain age to have, you know, your peak was when the best times is when you were a teenager and you were. And you were first into music. So to me, there'll never be albums that will top the albums that came out in the late 70s, the punk albums, there'll never be albums that will top that. But if I just sit down and think of what's my favorite album, what I'm going to play all the time, it probably isn't one of them, you know, so it probably does top it. But I have a thing in my heart for the punk rock and reggae music that happened in the late 70s. And everybody will have their peak. So I think in Scottish culture there will be several kind of peaks and things like that that people. And it would depend on your background, class, age, etc and as to how you see that. So, for instance, I know you've been heavily involved in Scottish hip hop.
I don't know much about Scottish hip hop other than the people I know because I've come across them through other.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: Work and there's definitely an overlap sometimes with the poetry scene. So that I think that's how, you know.
[00:28:48] Speaker C: Yeah, that's how I'd get to know them. And so I don't know. I couldn't say to anybody whether Scottish hip hop is of a standard as good as Norwegian or Glasgow or London hip hop or any. I have no idea because some of them. I don't have any to compare it to.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: Some of them are.
[00:29:06] Speaker C: But I think there'll be some people who will. Will think that, you know, postcard records, whatever is the peak. And Scottish music will never get any better. You know, I mean, it could be. It could be that right now the best Scottish band ever is playing right under our noses and none of us know them. You know, the.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: I think that you just mentioned Scottish up there. I think that since the podcast is called beyond the Cringe, I think there's no.
There's no genre is best explained by that. That word. Because I feel like if you sing in a Scottish accent, folk music trad. It's. The world loves it. If you are to.
If you tell comedians. Sorry, sorry, comedians.
When they tell jokes in a Scottish accent, it's accepted probably thanks to Billy Conway and Kevin Bridges, Frankie Bo People at that.
But for some reason, if you put poetry, Scottish poets, we've got Rabbi Burns, the, the original. You heard the hymn? Yes, sir. Good There, sir boy. And so when people do poaching Scots, it sounds like it's meant to be, but then you put a really well produced banging beat behind it and people cringe.
[00:30:25] Speaker C: No, I get that because there is a. Hip hop's an American culture. It's an American art form that came over here. I mean, it took over everything at one point, if you look at the charts.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: Is it American culture, though? I thought you just said that culture's just culture. That's culture that happens in America.
[00:30:39] Speaker C: Right. You're right. I mean, it's not American culture, but it's an American art form. Like jazz started in America and came over here. So people got used to hearing it in a certain way. And a lot of British hip hop, very early on were doing it in American accents. Just like over here when the first. When rock and roll and that type of music first came over here, all of the British bands were singing in American accents. And so I get that it might clash with certain people and they've got used to that London in it, but I think there is a certain criticism of Scottish hip hop in terms of the accent. It's just people who are biased against that accent. Darren McGarvey's had a lot. I've seen loads of comments on social media, people going like, just speak English, what the hell are you talking about? And all that kind of stuff, rather than Darren's telling his story in his language, you know, well, hip hop for.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: Me has got to be authentic. So if you're putting on an accent, it doesn't work for me, but some people do it. I've noticed there's some younger guys are doing it again and they're putting on the American accent, which means they might be successful. You know, it's a very niche thing.
[00:31:46] Speaker C: I mean, I don't. I mean, I think you do what you think you do what you think is right for you. And you're at. You know, there's no. Really. I don't. I don't do my poems in Scots. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I've got little bits of Scotch. So the actual Scots language I don't speak. What I do is. My poems come out in a.
A Scotch dialect of the English language, which is different from Scots, you know, which is a language in its own. And. And so I kind of am I. And I don't date deliberately or choose today. That's just the way it comes out. And if you've got, for instance, I mentioned before, teenage fan club, very American sounding band, non wrangler. You know, I mean, that's. That's their genre, that's their music, you know.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Also support. The good thing about being, I suppose, multilingual in a way, is that you. You'll be as Scottish as the words in front of you. So sometimes seeing te instead of two.
[00:32:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: You're going to. It's going to rhyme better in Scots and sometimes it's going to rhyme better in the. In the Queen's English.
So it's going back to the point you're saying. So it was quite good that you avoided that question because I think that was the right way to do it. Is that as culture getting better or worse? Because we are all biased to our own.
[00:33:04] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I do think that there's a thing that everybody does and it's not Scottish, it's everywhere, that kind of thing where your parents will say, what's that you're listening to? That's terrible. That's just noise. And then there's a danger that we all start doing that later on with the new music that's coming through.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: I found myself doing it recently for the first time ever since post lockdown, just thinking about how things have changed. And, you know, there's obviously the.
[00:33:32] Speaker C: The.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: But there's a lot of venues suffering, bands suffering. There's just no really any money in the industry just now in the arts.
So I feel I've been quite negative about it all because things aren't the same. They're not the way they used to be. Then every so often I'll go to a gig and it's like the young people don't know that they're just having the. They're still having. Packing out small venues and having the time of their life and they're having their moment. So I'm going to check myself in that. And obviously we're still going to demand. And the arts gets more funding. It needs more funding. We need more help for venues and bars. But let's also. Let's not talk it down so much. They seem like, you know, as if. Because festivals are struggling. And I just feel I've been guilty of it as well. Was just saying our music festivals use them or lose them. And I don't think that's a very positive way to promote these events. I don't know if I don't. I don't think that's very enticing to a buyer. Or we better use it or lose it.
[00:34:34] Speaker C: Yeah. And I do think that sometimes there's stuff happening under the radar that we're Unaware of. And these people will be. They will not even care about Creative Scotland funding or they won't even see us as part of the art scene. And people will be going. And it's especially young people because I always remember that like all those, all those great bands of the punky that I was brought with you, they were, they were basically when the Jammer on Top of the Pops, Paul wheeler was like 18, 17, something like that, they were young and I was 15. You're listening to those bands and you're even younger. And that's the crucial bit because that's pop music, that's the important audience, I think. And sometimes I forget that at Govan Hill Festival last year after the parade, love music, hate racism, did a little thing. There was local drill. It might be drill, it might be rangier, but it's a hip hoppy type thing drill. There's a local band who are guys that just work in the vape shop in Vicky Road and they've got massive following. I called, I think called something like the Triple O's or the Triple O Zeros or something.
[00:35:32] Speaker A: I know, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:36] Speaker C: They performed up in the park and all of a sudden, right, the whole audience changed all of a sudden. All the families and the people were out in Govyn Hill are normally out in Govan Hill. A whole like 200 young kids all wearing black pulled into Queen's park, watched that band, went mental, started fighting each other and then all paraded in Vicky Road at the same time. Making everybody scared.
They are seen, everybody's looking at them going, who the hell are they? They're local kids that live here who love this thing that we weren't even aware of that's probably selling mere tickets than all the things that we think's the great things around here, you know.
[00:36:12] Speaker A: Well, it's. I mean obviously my band has never had any funding at all, nothing like that. But I do worry that there is getting harder and harder for young, you know, to start because right now if you've got, you've got people are working two jobs to. To pay the rent. Where do you find time and money to go into the studio and rehearse and record?
[00:36:37] Speaker C: I think there's two things here, Mark. I think because I think what are.
[00:36:40] Speaker A: To go and open mic night and buy paints, you know, where does that extra time and money come from?
[00:36:45] Speaker C: I think, I think there's two things here. You're right, there isn't this opportunities in funding back in the day part of what councils would do. And part of it the Arts Council which became Creative Scotland would do was create local facilities. So I worked for a while in an old school that was converted into a rehearsal room. Just a four track studio in it. There was guys that, you know the hip hop band the Year All Time High. Yes, they. They worked in the. They had. There was a studio that was paid for by the council up and I think a draw soon or something like that kind of stuff that they did a lot of stuff and Stevenson, Stevenson helping young people and all that as well. So you're opportunities but, but although those things are not there in the same way now, the ones that are left are a few commercial studios rather than council bank ones who need to make money to pay the rent and all that.
There is opportunities that I. That my generation didn't have in terms of you can make a video with your phone. Do you know what I mean? That we cannot, you can have a concert online, that we cannot let boiler room have things where there's only 30 people at a gig but there's 3,000 people dancing in the living rooms and things like that kind of stuff, you know, so.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Paying their DJs £200.
[00:37:57] Speaker C: So I mean, so. So you have that kind of concept where the technology today means that it's maybe not as much a barrier as I think it is. I would say to myself, oh, it's no fear that young people don't have the same opportunity getting a studio and record for free. But to a young person involved in drill they might think what studio? What do you mean studio? I've got a bedroom. Yeah. Yes.
[00:38:19] Speaker A: So there is that the technology kind of maybe weighs things, sort of balances things out a little bit. That is that. I suppose you could make that argument. I'm not sure about that.
[00:38:29] Speaker C: I mean either it's just because I don't know, because I'm old. So I need to ask someday a young person.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: I think the problem with the technology, although it has a big advantage where it's the saturation of content, music's now competing for people's attention. And so it's like, you know, used to people used to spend 15 pound on a CD and just listen to.
[00:38:49] Speaker C: It and that and that to get back to your question, that's the thing about things being worse or better and all that stuff. There's a real danger that when resources are low that the scrap and the fight for the resources lowers the quality because all we're interested in is getting the thing that will sell the ticket because if we don't sell the ticket we won't get the follow up funding and therefore. And so it can water stuff down. So a theater could put on a less interesting season of plays because they think oh my God, if I don't do the numbers I'll just. I'll put on the steamy again because I know I'll always sell tickets. That type of thing you could end up with. That means that when the steamy's on for a month some young playwright who's running a plays. No getting a space because an old play is going back on just for safety's sake. Same venues programming might look at, you know, or there's an interesting young band. But rather than take the risk I'll put on Colonel Mustard or the Gyro Babies because I know a few hundred people are going to come in guaranteed. So that. So there is a kind of. When resources are low and we're scrapping full of resources, there are danger that affects all the art forms because we're fighting for every quid.
Yeah.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: And I suppose it's the short term culture. Sorry, short form culture. I suppose another way to look at it because that is what people are eating up just now. They're not watching as far as I'm aware. I've seen some studies on it.
Some of it's. Some of it's not official but the attention span.
[00:40:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: And the ability to just, you know who is listening to an album from start to finish. People I can be guilty of as well. Listen to an album once. Pick out your favorite songs and add it to your. Your bigger playlist.
People scrolling through and you know, you see a video and it's only 60 seconds or three minutes you watch it or are you going to watch a 60 minute documentary on YouTube when you can watch the a 60 second recap.
[00:40:52] Speaker C: Absolutely. I never, I never play records or CDs anymore. I don't own records anymore. But I went the opposite way. I got rid of all my vinyl when I moved up. I moved flat when it's about 12 years ago and all the vinyl I just gave it away. And to people that wanted it more than me because I just never played it. And then see me CDs and that eventually I gave them away. I gave loads of books and stuff away because were just things in my flat. And I find that if I want to listen to a song I'll get on the YouTube or Spotify or something and I'll listen to it. I don't. I don't really need it to be. I'm not a kind of person that needs some big sound system. But now I'm quite happy with just my headphones on. And I don't.
I don't need to own it to hear it, if you know what I mean. So there's very little that I can watch or read or listen to.
[00:41:42] Speaker A: No, that's. That's another disadvantage that the young bands are up against, because people aren't buying the vinyl.
[00:41:46] Speaker C: They're not buying it. So I'm not contributing money.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: And the Spotify is paying 0.0004 pence.
[00:41:54] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, so the difference. If you. If you're buying the vinyl, the band's ending up with 4 quid instead of 0.004 pence. You know what I mean?
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Buy the digital download and it's on. Bandcamp's a lot better. So. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm gonna move on to the.
I've got a couple of notes here. I was gonna. I've not even looked at my notes yet because I was wanting to ask you about stuff.
Do you remember writing your first poem?
[00:42:24] Speaker C: II and it was there. My first poems, like a lot of poets, were lyrics to songs to bands that, like, barely existed and flopped badly. Songs that never really went anywhere. And so became my first poems. So I can remember writing them. Me and a guy called Liam lynch had a band and kind of post punk, you know, guitar band. I was the singer and the lyricist and I wrote really quite cringy, political things that, you know, left is right and right is wrong.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: If I done that.
[00:43:04] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Every. All the things everybody wrote when they were that age. You know, that stuff.
[00:43:07] Speaker A: The equivalent of Scottish hip hops. The lyrical and miracle.
[00:43:10] Speaker C: Yeah. And four of them ended up in a comp. A poetry compilation called Water Closets, which was put through record shops and of trade and all that kind of stuff in 1980. So. Forum. They're still about somewhere. I don't know if Andy's still got a copy of that thing. It was like a zine type thing, but it was. I look back and I'm doing. Quite embarrassed with them, to be honest.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: Where are they?
[00:43:32] Speaker C: Where are they?
[00:43:33] Speaker A: Dig them up.
[00:43:34] Speaker C: No, the next episode.
[00:43:36] Speaker A: What's called beyond the Cringe. If it makes you cringe, then you've got to go beyond that.
[00:43:42] Speaker C: I know.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: Do you know? Do you know, looking back. So I kind of watch a. A live performance or a. Or even listen to a podcast or anything I've done for about A year or maybe two years. But then when I look back I don't cringe anymore. I go, good on. Good on the wee man. Good on the wee guy. I've got better since then. I can justify it. It's a different person.
[00:44:04] Speaker C: I think the difference for me mark is it's 40 odd years ago. So it's a massive difference. And it's not only that, but you can enjoy your.
[00:44:11] Speaker A: Do you not think good on you.
[00:44:13] Speaker C: I never really saw myself seriously as a poet until I finished up three goes at being a poet. And it's the third one, the most recent one which is the last 20 years which is different from when I did it before, which was basically just song lyrics that didn't have a song. So they became poetry and they weren't really poems as such. So I kind of.
I am so cringed about them that I would never. There's no way I'm digging them out even for a laugh.
[00:44:37] Speaker A: Do it for charity. You've got to dig them out somehow.
[00:44:40] Speaker C: No, there's no chance that I'll ever harm. And I also had a spell where I'd go to Celtic Games in the 1980s. We traveled everywhere to see Celtic and I was a Celtic player on supporters bus, I think.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: I'm sure I can believe that.
[00:44:53] Speaker C: Pubs before games and all that. I'd got up on a table and do some really ranty anti Rangers poem and just to play to the audience and the place would go mental and all that stuff. And they were awful. I mean I look back and I can think of some of them I can still remember offhand off my heart but they were awful. They're the kind of things that if I hear somebody, they ain't probably give that guy a kicking. No, that's how bad they were. And they were deliberately decided. They were deliberately sectarian. Deliberately meant to get the audience going. And all that felt good at the time. So some of them are just. I was no, I'm no, I'm no, I'm no digging in.
[00:45:32] Speaker A: Right, okay, fair enough.
[00:45:33] Speaker C: There will never be a retrospective release of the Basement dates.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: Fair enough. But maybe like, okay, maybe not the. Maybe not your. Maybe not your sectarian era, but more about your.
[00:45:45] Speaker C: I mean this, this current era if you like. It comes down to a poem, you know, well called the United Colours of Kumnuk.
[00:45:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:52] Speaker C: And I wrote a lot of poetry at that time and there was a particular poem that I wrote about my hometown that just weirdly just fell out of me.
I take a long time to write A poem. This one was written in a couple of days and it just. And for ages I sat on it because I thought, God, that sounds so good.
And it's so good.
It feels familiar, though. It feels like I must have nicked this idea. I was terrified to kind of see it a day because I thought it was all so easy that I think I've probably stolen this idea inadvertently stolen it for somewhere else. So it took me ages getting people to listen to it, talk to people and say, have you heard this before? My town is a blue town My town is a green town. And convinced that somebody was going to tell me that I stole it.
[00:46:44] Speaker A: Could you perform that for us then go beyond the cringe and give us our first live performance?
[00:46:49] Speaker C: Oh, all right. I wasn't expecting.
[00:46:50] Speaker A: I just feel like. I feel like if you're gonna. Rather than talk about here, we don't need a guitar.
[00:46:55] Speaker C: Well, I do have a poem that's actually particularly about the Scottish cringe and about the subject of the thing about Scottish culture and all that. I don't.
Rather than United Colours, a comic, I.
[00:47:06] Speaker A: Think just do both and we can edit if we need to.
[00:47:09] Speaker C: Okay. Right. United Colors are coming. I wrote this about my hometown at the time and a place. A place I was born in and spent half my life and on and off over the years. I moved away when I was 5 and I moved back when I was 27 or something. Brought my son up there and it's. But it is my hometown, Kumlook.
My town is a green town but it's not like a. Fuck the queen Green town It's a tree in every scene Town with gardens freshly dug that's green that pours through every crack through pavements, viaducts, Fitba parks where men who suffer heart attacks Go walks with three legged ducks My town is a blue town who the fuck are you? Town? What school did you go to? Town and are you one of us? That's blue that seeps through doors and walls for pubs and bookies Village halls where men would guard old Derry's walls instead of guarding us My town was once a red town Another minor dead town A man who fought in bled town with brave and stalwart wives that shredded Came from meeting rooms for folk that worked the pumps and looms when burra bands played different tunes and we marched for better lives but now my town's a grey town a 50 mills a day town A watch life slip away down a tunnel Wany light that's gray that weeps for dying eyes Bewildered Parents children's cries with skinny arms and stick like thighs and nae strength left they fight.
Thank you much. Thank you.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: Brilliant stuff.
[00:48:55] Speaker C: As poem. Jock Tamson Guns is about the nature of the Scottish cultural cringe.
I suspect that's probably a Korean cringe and a Mexican cringe and every other kind of cringe.
And it's about looking at Scottish culture from the outside, looking in. I suppose it's.
[00:49:13] Speaker A: Sorry, can I just interrupt that there?
[00:49:15] Speaker C: Do you.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: So you're saying that every other place has the cringe?
[00:49:17] Speaker C: I think so. I think there's just a. I don't know if we even have it. You know, I kind of think that we're much the same as anywhere else.
[00:49:25] Speaker A: We do have it, though. I mean, when the Scottish guy comes on eastenders, people do have the Scottish cringe.
[00:49:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:30] Speaker A: It's because they put a kind of weird accent.
[00:49:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I know. But I'm sure if the German guy comes on eastenders, the Germans will go, God, look at him, he's not even funny. They've got no sense of humor.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: All right, interesting. I don't know if you're right. I'll have anchor, but.
[00:49:43] Speaker C: Sorry, I mean, I will talk about it over in the podcast.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I know it's worth it. I would like to actually ask.
[00:49:48] Speaker C: So Jock Tamson Guards, go for it.
Scottish football is in the dock. It seems that we're a laughing stock of Europe. No longer will we see the day when the likes of Cooper Hanson, Paul McStay, Baxter Johnson, Dennis Law, the Artists or the Tanner Ball will grace the greatest stage on earth and show the world what we are worth. But as our team face many tankings and slipped further than the FIFA rankings, maybe we should ponder whether this list of heroes even ever played together. I mean, it was the McNeil that lifted up the 1966 World Cup. Four years later, we didn't even go to the classic finals in Mexico. But then I'm sure that David Hume did not meet Irvin Welsh or Walter Scott. James McMillan never willed the bait was pinned but it's the same for Poland and for Sweden for Marie Curie never got a call for Copernicus or Pope John Paul so although we like to greet and whinge and exercise the Scottish cringe, let's face it, just like many nations, we sometimes rise above our station so don't mope when it doesna go our way Rejoice when the wee dug has its day but have I been mediocre? But have never been great but let's enjoy and celebrate the times the beautiful times when we punch above our weight.
[00:51:10] Speaker A: Nice one. So, Dud Scott, probably the last thing I want to ask you is, did Scotland invent everything or are we deluding ourselves?
[00:51:17] Speaker C: No, we're totally deluding ourselves. A lot of things have been invented, but there's enough to fill a. There's enough to fill a tea towel. But I mean, things like, for instance, Alexander Freeman Faerscher discovered penicillin. He discovered penicillin while working for an English hospital in London, you know, I mean, that's where he discovered penicillin, Marconi and all those things. Like, he was Italian, but he owned his place in Scotland, so we call it Scottish. Alexander Graham Bell invented a phone, maybe, but if he did, he did it in America working with an American firm, not in Scotland. So I, I sometimes Scottish people. So daily records Scottish rather than, aye, sometimes Scottish people.
[00:52:00] Speaker A: So that kind of rounds up back to the start of what we were saying, that when we, when, when, when they win, they're Scottish and when they don't, they know.
[00:52:08] Speaker C: Aye, aye. Can I, can I find you a wee Frankie Boyle thing that Frankie Boyle once said?
[00:52:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:13] Speaker C: John Logie Baird, somebody once said to him, so, John Logie Baird, this great invention you've made, the television. What a wonderful invention. And John Logie, beard, typical Scotsman, said, I better. All on.
[00:52:27] Speaker A: Brilliant stuff. Thank you, Jim. Also want to thank Glad Radio for having us here today and the deep end as well. It's great set up here. Thank you very much for having us. Jim's podcast, beyond the Cringe should be out now if you're listening to this, so you can search on, on all the usual podcast places. And thank you for tuning in and bye.
